Steaming correspondence
This really steams my fish. I don't expect separatist parishes to pay much attention to the lamented correspondence from the Archbishop of Canterbury to Bishop John Howe, telling Howe to counsel dissident rectors against disaffiliating at this time.
No, what bothers me is these rectors' supposition they will continue to have leadership roles in the diocese, even as they proceed with leaving the diocese and the Episcopal Church. This being Central Florida, it could happen. It shouldn't be allowed to happen.
Not that I even approve of the bishop allowing them to present him proposals. Seems to me like it should be the other way around. HE is the bishop, and has the power, though priests like Don Curran have had an inordinate amount of power in this diocese. That's part of the problem.
Read this:
From The Living Church Foundation at http://www.livingchurch.org. I couldn't get a link to the article to work. Once you're on the page, look under "Latest News" and click on the article.
Letter Doesn’t Sway Central Florida Parishes
10/24/2007
A letter from Archbishop of Canterbury Rowan Williams to Bishop John W. Howe of Central Florida has changed nothing for the rectors and wardens of seven parishes and two church plants in that diocese, said a spokesperson for the group.
“We remain committed to disaffiliation from The Episcopal Church and continue in discussion with Bishop Howe over that process,” said the Rev. Don Curran, rector of Grace Church, Ocala, and president of the standing committee. “We want to handle this as expeditiously as possible, but there is no established deadline.”
Fr. Curran said he and the other clergy were shown Archbishop Williams’ letter by Bishop Howe during a meeting Oct. 18 at the diocesan headquarters in Orlando. The meeting was scheduled after Fr. Curran approached Bishop Howe on behalf of the group. Under terms agreed to during the meeting, each parish will submit a proposal for consideration by the bishop.
The rector of one of the parishes, the Rev. Lorne Coyle of Trinity, Vero Beach, is a candidate for election to the standing committee this year. Fr. Curran said both he and Fr. Coyle remain ready to serve in whatever leadership capacity beyond their parish that they are asked until they are received into another province.
Steve Waring
28 comments:
oh good grief - running for Standing Committee when planning to leave - yikes
The 9 clergy are still members of the diocese, and the negotiations may take a long time. While they are still clergy in this diocese, they have just as much right as the other 80 or so clergy to run for office, and to get it! Most of this diocese is Orthodox Anglican and we support these fine priests who, for conscience sake, are making decisions which every parish in this diocese will have to make for themselves shortly. Thanks be to God for the courageous individuals. At the moment, they are still members of the diocese of CF, and they are certainly welcome to run for, and secure, election in this diocese! Good for them.
I'm 50/50 on this. Yes, why should you be or want to be in leadership if you want to leave. Doesn't make sense if you are leaving the garden club or the political party. Those you can just leave.
However, being in the diocese, it is a whole different level. These congregations want to leave, but they are not being given the opportunity to do it in a manner they feel meets their responsibilities (whether you agree or not). And until they are allowed to leave, they have the right and duty to be a part of the decision making process that affects them. Until the concerted effort to replace/prevent them succeeds, they have representation, and in our opinion - rightfully so. But we understand how you feel.
What bothers us the most about all of this junk is that while we L2 were sitting in our orthodox pews we were being told: Don't worry - this isn't going to affect us. Keep writing your checks. And we did and gave of our time and talents. We were told that what we were giving our money toward would be there in the form we knew it for us now, in the future, and for future generations.
So for those churches who have been told this over the years (and Central Florida is not an exception in our experience), to be told that what they have built does not belong to them is fraud and theft. Even if you do not agree with this, please understand and have some compassion for those who feel they have been lied to knowingly or unknowingly by either their priest or their bishop - no matter what the diocese.
I remember hearing conversations after the departures following the oridination of women and the prayer book, etc., etc. at both St. John's Melbourne and Holy Apostles. It was discussed during coffee hour conversations whether it would be required to sign the deeds to the diocese. It wasn't and they weren't. There was an understanding that the church remained local. Right or wrong, that is what my and others' experience and expectation was/is.
That may not be your experience or belief. But it is ours and many others. To what percentage of the church does this equate to? We really don't know - we sought out conservative churches to be a part of. You know, unity in diversity. We didn't seek the eradication of the others, we accepted that they were in a different place than us. USA's right to freedom of religion.
If TEC wants the property so bad that it cares more for that property over the spiritual needs of these parishoners who poured out of themselves their time, talent, money and yes, sweat and tears, have at it. We see it as the two women fighting over the baby before King Solomon. God will redeem those displaced as He has Prince of Peace out of St. John's.
We have a great priest who is not one of "The 20". But we L2 have been in services where a priest (our first female priest) denied the virgin birth and divinity of Christ during Christmas service and another priest (gay man) who was rewriting the miracle of Cana in directions that were not Scriptural and almost had us leave. Had we not been guests, we would have. When that becomes the norm - we are out. How much longer that is is up for grabs.
We see the orthodox members of this diocese under the gun just as they have been across the country for many years. I got to hear about this in +Swing's diocese in the mid-1980's. Their voice has been silenced frequently and their exit has been all of our loss. We count 4 direct family members alone, 7 additional that are are not only no longer members, but are unchurched. What does Christ think of that? Would the new TEC welcome them? No, because they don't believe in the new thing - whatever that is today. And what has been proved is that TEC will re-engineer itself with no guidelines or rules. What will be permissible next year and the year after? What are and who makes the standards. These questions I have asked for over a year online and over 20 in real world.
And the hardest one? What will you do when TEC crosses beyond your comfort zone? If you do not agree, remember: individuals can leave, but....
We write all of this so that you may know us. We read you to get to know you, to understand.
In Christ,
The Lakeland Two
Lakeland Two,
I am one of you. I belong to a conservative parish in Central Florida and ours is not one of "the 20." But I don't understand why we are staying at this point. Will we ever leave? Or because Bishop Howe says "no" is this diocese trapped inside TEC?
Lakeland Two and anonymous, you may leave TEC at any time. Your whole congregation may leave at any time, without the need of anyone's permission, but you may not take the property with you. It's simple.
God's blessings to you.
Anon - Afraid this diocese is trapped in TEC. Even those that aren't will face horrific challenges ahead. For some reason, +Howe believes he has a duty to keep us here. It's not what I was led to believe. I think he has pinned his hopes on the +ABC's promises of not abandoning the faithful. And I do not think the +ABC has the same thing in mind. Perhaps, when push comes to shove, +Howe will be leading those left out of TEC. I really don't know. I think there's more going on than any of us little pewsitters get to know.
But our choices are these: Leave or stay and fight it out, praying and having the faith that the correction needed will be brought about in God's timing. This is not the first time in human history that we face these things. Nor will it probably be the last - until Jesus comes back. But if you are going to stay, you need filling and fellowship. If you are registered on Stand Firm, you can send me a private message. Blessings to you and all.
The Lakeland Two
I want to say this as gently as I can, because I understand, L2, that you are feeling some pain. Of course, I've felt pain in this diocese too -- quite a bit of it. But that's not my main point.
Coming to Central Florida as a lifelong Episcopalian, I have to say my first reaction to these conservative country churches down here was -- Huh??? And also my second and third reaction. But again, I'm not trying to bash, though I probably sound like I am. I'm trying to say that the things you've been told here (about church government, and other matters as well) may very well not be in accordance with settled Anglican doctrine and tradition. (I am not saying you were lied to, but you may have been told some things -- many things? -- that were not true.)
L2, based on part of what you say, you sound as though you have believed for years that you in effect were already part of a different denomination than the rest of the Episcopal churches in the US. And for what it's worth, the Episcopal Churches here are different enough from the rest of the country that in some ways, they are in fact a separate denomination. But perhaps you do need to consider whether you still want to be a part of the national church in any way at all.
I understand this kind of "local option" thinking is very prevalent in Central Florida, in all areas of life. Whatever it is -- law, regulation, school or medical standard -- people here don't really seem to feel the need to take account of it if it comes from outside their immediate community. They interpret the regulation (or whatever) in their own fashion, which is seldom the way anyone else does, but when this fact is brought up to them, they almost dare the other person to "make 'em" do it the right way. The common saying is "We don't want to hear about how they did it where you came from." This is a peculiar kind of individualism that people tell me is a part of the Cracker heritage, but as I have observed it, it's usually self-defeating, and I think it's going to be self-defeating in your case also.
Episcopalians and Anglicans have a hierarchical form of church government. That's what we do. As the English of King Alfred's day said, our lives are on loan -- to God. Our churches are not our possessions, we don't "pay for them" in the way that we pay for new cars and carpets. To think that we do, and that having "bought" the church it is "ours," is one part of the thinking in Central Florida that I really do have trouble with.
This idea, which is very prevalent here, that major donors somehow "own" a parish is -- well, I suppose I could call it "traditional" in a way. There were scandalous customs in some parts of pre- and post-Reformation England that allowed powerful local laypeople to control the appointments and actions of "their" priests. But such things were always considered scandals and abuses, and the reformers (both Catholic and Protestant) spent a good bit of time trying to root them out.
It seems to come as a surprise to you that parishes can't simply disaffiliate and reaffiliate with another denomination. I am always surprised to learn how many people in Central Florida have always assumed, as you do, that they could. But it's never been the case within the Anglican tradition that they could. L2, I'm sorry, but the Anglican tradition doesn't allow for the kind of congregational control you've assumed you had a right to.
In one way -- and of course, I've experienced this, too -- Episcopalians have always had a kind of local option. The Church of England refers to it as a "gathered church," but they aren't as sure as you seem to be that it is a good idea. The "gathered church" is a parish brought together for some reason other than the geographical one. And of course parishes have always differed within a diocese. One might be higher, one lower, one might tend to attract progressives, another conservatives, some, but not all, might be gay-friendly, and so on. I can't imagine that your church wouldn't continue to be conservative if the people attending it continued to be conservative.
Perhaps that's the problem. I do know that you are in an area that is growing rapidly. I know Lakeland is marketing itself as part of Florida's "high-tech corridor," and the city planners are doing a good bit to make it an attractive place for the so-called "creative class." That might mean that your Lakeland church is starting to attract people who are somehow different from the people you've known, more progressive in their outlook, more flexible in their thinking -- or just people who have moved in from elsewhere. Could this be part of the reason that your church is becoming such an uncomfortable place? You may experience the presence of new kinds of people as "pressure," as upsetting or threatening in some way; you may feel that you can no longer control what happens to you at church. This might be something to discuss with your priest.
Charlotte, I appreciate what you are saying and that you offer it nicely. Your inference is that it's only one or two individuals, or a congregation here and there (or even that Central Florida is the only one that feels this way) and that it's natural change we all must go along with. Sorry, but I don't agree with you, and neither do a lot of other people.
I've had the experience of living elsewhere in this country and there are people elsewhere who feel the same way. In California, Arkansas, Tennessee, and beyond.
You came down and see things as I've written. Did you respect and accept these people as they are? Your comments infer a pyschological instability and irrational resistance to change. Done very well, but just because people don't agree with you doesn't mean they are wrong.
The issues go well beyond the gay issue, but you know that. It's about TEC preaching a different Gospel.
My priest is fully aware of our position as well as others in our congregation. He's not happy about what's going on either, but he is being faithful to his bishop. He's telling all of us that change can only happen if we stay. And that we will continue to preach the Gospel - from Scripture. Something that even a lot of new people are interested in.
I wanted to understand, and I guess I do. There is no room for anyone who thinks differently in your TEC. I wish you all God's best.
Lakeland2, It's not what I was led to believe either. I am registered on StandFirm, though fairly new there, and I'll figure out how to send you a private e-mail from there. I don't understand what Bishop Howe is doing, except to say from my humble vantage point it seems that man could get splinters from that fence. And what's to happen when he retires, or if wife Karen needs him first? Blessings to you also!
Charlotte, I too came to Central Florida from outside, and I spent some uncomfortable time in conservative churches until God woke me up and showed me some things. Like you, I had been a lifelong Episcopalian from a liberal diocese. But I've changed, and praise God for leading me to Him here in Central Florida. I will tell you, from your progressive side, you have not been told the truth by liberal TEC. And yes, I've come to know that liberal TEC is altogether a different religion, one that I cannot be part of. From your comments to Lakeland2 --and I too am trying to be gentle with you-- it's clear to me that you do not understand why Orthodox Anglicans in Central Florida must dissociate from your new religion. As Lakeland2 has also said, it's about TEC preaching a different Gospel. Orthodox Anglicans trapped "in" TEC are not "of" TEC, if you could try to understand this. I pray daily that Bishop Howe will pick up his staff and lead the diocese out of TEC. In God's time, perhaps he shall.I agree with Lakeland2 that there's more going on than we pewsitters get to know.
And G. Mimi, where property ends up remains to be seen. I think you miss the mark.
God's peace to all this Sunday morning.
Thanks for posting this Saint Pat.
Amazing. Almost makes me believe in the devil.
Lindy
Well, anonymous and L2, then I think you do have to leave the Episcopal Church. I am sorry for it. You could still be a part of it. Anonymous, your priest is right: change can't happen unless you stay in. But God has shown both of you that you have to leave (you say).
You are saying that you have a spirit, and this spirit is of God -- or else that it is God. God has spoken directly to you and told you what to do. All right. Follow your spirit's promptings, which you say are of God, or are God's voice. From my perspective, it means that your trust in your own private, subjective judgment is going to win out over the consensus of the Church and the counsels of your own priest. That makes no sense to me, but perhaps it does to you.
I think everyone regrets that you have listened to the promptings of the spirit that speaks to you, which you call your God, when it comes to initiating lawsuits over church property. The law, like the tradition of the Church, is not a matter for private judgment.
Linda McMillan: In Christian tradition, the Devil is also a spirit.
I am a theological conservative: I believe in the Virgin birth -- not because that's what God demanded, but because that's what the people of that time demanded: a miracle. And it is a miracle. I believe in miracles. I believe God works in the world today.
I believe that Jesus' miraculous, revolutionary Gospel is still be unfolded in this world.
I'm a member of the healing prayer ministry, because I believe God hears our prayers, and because his Spirit heals.
I don't believe Jesus would exclude a gay person any more than he would have excluded Matthew (tax collector) or Mary Magdalene (demon-possessed or mentally ill, your choice), or any more than he would exclude me for having blue eyes or someone else for having brown eyes. He seeks to bring us closer to him, and in that process, heals us in whatever ways we need healing. I have seen so many hurting people, hurting from the arrows this world hurls at them -- whether gay, straight, black or white or freckled. We all need him, and he wants us all.
I won't be a part of a group that excludes a person because of his or her sexuality.
Neither will I be part of a church that denies God is God, alive and active in the world.
If that makes me part of some "new" heretical church in anyone's opinion, well, too bad.
I believe there's been a lot of untruths told about the church by parties who have their own agendas.
I keep hearing about these "heretical" priests, but haven't encountered them, definitely not in Central Florida.
There's some nasty spiritual stuff, twisted up in lies and hate, going on.
And clergy who've declared they're out should have no further role in the diocese.
Anonymous, how are you trapped in TEC? Are you tied up, locked up? Is someone holding you by force? I don't understand, truly. You are my brother or sister in the Lord, and I am trying to understand.
If I thought TEC had strayed so far away from the Gospel of Jesus Christ as you seem to think, I'd make my exit quickly, without a thought of what the bishop does or about the property. I'd have to follow my conscience, for I will be held accountable by God for what I do, not what my bishop does.
God's peace to you.
St. Pat said, "And clergy who've declared they're out should have no further role in the diocese."
Yes, they should, Pat. They are still in the diocese until this matter is settled and while that is the case they have every bit as much right to have a role in the diocese as does Bishop Howe or your rector for that matter. Every bit as much right, and duty. And I hope they win election.
G. Mimi, Orthodox Anglicans are trapped in the diocese until Bishop Howe picks up that staff and leads the diocese out of TEC and that, it seems, he is unwilling to do. I don't know what happens in January, when the Diocese meets, but I do know there is a meeting of a special committee sometime in November and perhaps when that committee reports back to Bishop Howe he will see his way clear to do what he needs to do as a conservative bishop to minister to his flock.
I think that in some of what I was saying earlier I was thanking God that I was not as these Pharisees are (cf this Sunday's Gospel). This is a temptation I often succumb to, and it is also the reason we need each other in the Body -- to correct one another's faults.
But I do get the sense that L2 and anonymous are so unhappy with the Episcopal Church that they need to find another denomination in which to worship, at least for a time. I want to say that whatever you might be feeling, you are not trapped in the Episcopal Church. It doesn't matter what Bishop Howe does or does not do. There are already parishes in the Continuum. A website called "Shelter from the Storm," run (I think) by the "Grannie Gloria" who posts to T19 and Stand Firm, will direct you to them. A number are AAC or Network churches, but many are not -- they are AMiA or CANA or (etc...) and one of them is probably near enough and comfortable enough to sustain you.
It might be that your rector would like to join one of these denominations, and that you might like to follow him there. The rules of a hierarchical church will apply to the church buildings, of course, but I understand that Bishop Howe has bent over backwards to negotiate fair sales of church property to departing congregations. You may be asked to pay fair market value for your building, but the real estate market in Florida is working in your favor now.
So if you really feel you need to go, there are solutions. You don't have to wait for Bishop Howe, and he may well not go in any case. Some of the clergy here have been counting on him to affiliate the entire Diocese with CANA, or Uganda, or Kenya, or Rwanda, or Southern Cone, or one of the other options. But Bishop Howe has always been quite clear about one thing: the Archbishop of Canterbury would not recognize such a separated diocese as a diocese of the Anglican Communion. The AMiA churches are not recognized, and neither are the CANA churches. They claim affiliation with the Anglican Communion through the provinces of Rwanda and Nigeria, but it is a secondary affiliation. Their bishops were not invited to Lambeth, which was consistent with past Anglican practice.
Some have thought that if enough pressure were put on ++Rowan, he would buckle and invite Martyn Minns to Lambeth, but that seems less and less likely. Archbishop Akinola's power base has been steadily shrinking. He is no longer the head of CAPA, the organization of African and South Asian provinces he used to launch his "Global South" campaign. He may refuse to attend Lambeth, and a few others may also, but it won't be much of a protest.
But, perhaps you can be happy in a church that follows some aspects of Anglican practice but is separated from Canterbury. Or perhaps a Missouri Synod Lutheran church would be right for you? You do have options.
Charlotte, I am sure TEC would be delighted if all Orthodox Anglicans just left. Don't think I underestimate your 'great concern.' And indeed, Orthodox Anglicans in Central Florida should wait for Bishop Howe or at least our diocese itself to decide how and when this DIOCESE leaves TEC. Not individual churches, not individual pewsitters, but the Diocese itself.
Anonymous, the only Orthodox church around here is the Greek one. Feel free to visit. There's nothing orthodox, or faithful, about throwing away Hooker's three-legged stool for Duncanism and Akinolaism.
You've already been banned at Father Jake's. Don't troll here anymore. Stay at Stand Firm or somewhere more hospitable.
Pat, I'm wondering something. Would there be a space somewhere in the blogosphere for all the various stripes of Central Floridians to meet and hash things through? Assuming that they are all willing to talk with each other, that is. I can understand why anonymous might not be a part of that -- intimidation of other bloggers, personal attacks, and so forth are not going to be welcome anywhere I'd care to be. But people who can articulate what they think or feel and might want to, in company with others who might or might not agree.
What do you think? I would be glad to volunteer for it if there were several hosts -- because I can't monitor the postings all day and night.
Of course I remember that we had a closed list on Yahoo! at one point, and anonymous, under a pseudonym, came in and started flame wars with everyone in sight -- ended the usefulness of the list, which was her real aim, I'm sure. So the discussions would have to be monitored carefully.
I am just thinking -- you know the way the Network people recycle the same "stuff" over and over -- it might be helpful to others to link to sources of correct information.
I don't think I would have the time or energy to manage it, Charlotte, but if you want to start a discussion group, I'll certainly visit!
The article is here and has links to the Williams letter and to the earlier report about the parishes involved.
Thanks, Paul. I just couldn't get a link to work
What has happened to Christ,
In Central Florida Churches?
Was he ever here?!?
Not since I've been here ....1989-2007. Don Curran has twisted Christ, and should be exposed for the Sinner he is!!
Hello David G!
Christ is here! He is always with us, unto the end of the world.
And Don Curran is not the only rector in Central Florida. He's one of just seven who have declared their intent to leave the Episcopal Church at this time.
According to Canon Ernie Bennett, between seventeen and twenty-two rectors and vestries have discussed leaving at one time or another. See http://www.cfdiocese.org/news/pdf/cfe1007.pdf (page 7).
This is out of about eighty-eight parishes in the Diocese.
So David G -- at most, Donald Curran, Lorne Coyle, and their supporters represent about one-quarter of the parishes in Central Florida.
They are, as Canon Bennett pointed out, overrepresented on the Standing Committee and Diocesan Committee. He has called for the election of lay and clergy candidates more representative of the Diocese as a whole. Perhaps, if that does happen, we will see a Diocese that more visibly shows forth the Body of Christ in the world.
I am always amazed at what people think I preach and believe as a progressive. (Paint us all with the same brush.) Just for starters, I adore the Feast of All Saints with its emphasis on the communion of saints, the real presence in the Holy Eucharist and so forth. Where I differ I guess with those who want to think I am a heretic is that I believe in the full inclusion of all and equal access for all to Holy Orders.
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